"Cave Catatrophe Beta 0.5"

[Dakota]

ok, i've been working on a cave map and its been out for a week or two for the beta. most of the people i usually get to help me beta test are offline and have been all week. i need a few people to volunteer to help me on a cave map i am making.

as i said before this is a beta also the sides are not finished sides. the map has a few sharp edges, a few "terrain cutter malfunctions" and maybe a few props in places that are a bit higher or lower than they should be in comparison to other props and the ground.

CTF mode doesn't work, don't try it, i just haven't removed it yet in the luas and reqs.

here is the map to all of those who would like to beta test.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/21173240 ... ta+0.5.exe

if you want to test please contact me on xfire or better yet just post on this topic saying that you are testing and tell any bugs that you find.

[ZaxusFett]

i'll test it cause thats my name


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Things i found, some of the textures werent blended or something like that because i could see under and through some things like the hoth tunnels they werent lined up with the caves, the ai seem to run into the walls and cp 10 i think it was cannot be captured idk about if any others cannot be captured and the weapons seem alittle bit over powered.

[Marth8880]

First and foremost, you simply must cut down on the size of the map. Every time I see a huge map on SWBF Files, it has a generally poor review from Mav. Large maps just aren't usually very good. I would suggest you choose one smaller area of the map, focus on it, and get rid of all other parts of the map.

Next is the sky. Personally, I think the Rhen Var: Harbor sky or the Hoth sky would go very well with this map. Also, I need to feel like I'm actually in a real place, not in just some huge, closed off dome; hills surrounding the playing area of the map could really help with this, as well as mountain skydome objects.

Following the sky is the lighting. I would recommend you place a directional light as well as a sun to give a more realistic approach, just make sure you have it cast specular and shadows. Speaking of lighting, what I think would look really cool is a dark cave with glowing crystals, like that one map that Ashley posted a WIP thread for a while ago.

Onto the sides. While I know the sides are unfinished, there are some things that need to be looked at. For example: I know you like to make your sides "realistic"; in real life, when a live grenade is less than a foot from you, heck, even stuck onto you, and it explodes, you aren't going to just fly back and live and not have that ligament blown clear off. Also, when I'm playing as the hero (Boba Fett, specifically), I should be thriving, tearing my way through the enemy, not struggling to survive. Balance-wise, the sides seem to play pretty well, so that doesn't seem to be an issue for now.

Map-wise, I'm not entirely sure you should keep yourself attached with the whole snow/ice scene; it's just way too commonly done. How about a more rugged, rocky mountain approach? You could re-texture the caves to look rocky and dirty, rather than snowy and shiny, even if snowy and shiny is pretty and all.

Also, I would rethink the layout of your command posts; typically, a consistent shape such as a snowflake, or a torus, or a theta, or any shape that just "flows", makes a map flow like the Nile river. As I recently found with Luna and Io, dinking around with the command posts' settings such as ValueBleed, ValueATK, ValueDEF, and AISpawnWeight can really have a giant impact on a map's balance.

Staying on the subject of command posts, every command post should feel different from one another. For example, there shouldn't be several command posts with the same bland white walls and water; every command post should have its own unique environment that the player can think back to.

Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts and observations based on past experiences and tests. Happy mapping!


EDIT:

Oh, and what's up with the size of the map? 800 megabytes does not seem very truthful to the contents of what's really there. I looked in the map's folder and there appears to be several of the stock maps' LVLs, as well as every side's LVL. My Mass Effect Mod currently clocks in at 372 megabytes, and it's chock-full of high-def models and textures and sounds and music.

[Dakota]

@test: i needed to put some props behind some peices where ice meets hoth tunnel so that you can't see through, also at the deathstar like area i need something near the inner staircase.

@marth: the map itself wasn't done. it is actually just the rough version of it. the sides haven't been added and i haven't even thought up anything for the outside yet so i just put water so that people don't just run over there. i was planning a hoth sky also.

about the size: i won't be cutting that down. this is my smallest map yet and if anything i may add more to it. also i would do something with lighting but i can't see it because if i go and turn my graphics up my computer just about freezes up.

about the sides: as i said these aren't done and when i say that i mean they aren't nearly done, all i did was change a few healths and change a few weapons up. i didn't even mod the heros. i don't plan on using those heros anyway, i may just go for 10 units per side or either 9 and a hero that is completly different.

there are a few problems with the clone commander like unit, his cape disappeared and also his combo animations are a bit messy, at least when idol.

i've seen alot of snowy maps and i have liked them all. i thought of a more brown dirt/rock look but i just didn't have any props to really do anything with that, not to mention that some textures just wouldn't really look all that great on the ice props. i've seen alot of snow maps but never a snow map focusing on just the ice caves.

about the cps: i didn't put any thought into how the cps look on the mini map because frankly i can't see how that matters compared to their placement in the level. the level itself is a maze like cave so why would i want the cps to look easy to follow? i did put the cps in stratigic locations and places where it would make a good battle if one team captured one cp and the other team got the other.

i do plan on changing spawn weights though, as i haven't touched them yet. also if i made the cps really easy easy to think back to then it wouldn't be so maze like. players can rely on their own markers to find their path, like destroying an ammo or medic droid or placing a turret, this would also allow enemies to mess up their paths. i tested it with a friend in an earlier beta test. he had destroyed the ammo and medic droid at one place then we had moved on and later found an area that looked nearly the same and he said that we had been here before but i had remembered that he destroyed the droids and so we didn't get lost.

the goal of the map was meant to be exploration and fighting not just battle.

About the size: i haven't taken out the unneeded sides yet after i do it it will be under 100 mb probably.

NOTE: i'll probably give some units a marker like thing. maybe a scout or explorer or pathfinder to place little markers as he walks by and lead allies by that method.

people say to not forget about the offline players but that doesn't mean i need to completly neglect the online players or people with bad graphics who would crash or lag out if i tried adding too many visuals. i can't even put foliage on my maps or i lag a lot also i can't even see lighting.

[THEWULFMAN]

also i would do something with lighting but i can't see it because if i go and turn my graphics up my computer just about freezes up.

Having a single directional light, with specular and shadows enabled, won't slow you or anyone's computer down if you keep your settings low. Believe me, I once had to work with a terrible computer that would lag at the lowest settings. It's also not fair to the people with somewhat decent computers to rob them of the simplest of lighting. Shadows and specular make a big difference.

[Marth8880]

I would highly recommend you read this article. Every mapper here could actually benefit from this.
http://www.worldofleveldesign.com/categories/level_design_tutorials/map_creation_guidelines.php


I would also advise reading through this Powerpoint Presentation:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38430663/adams2e_ppt_12.ppt

[CressAlbane]

Wow, that was a very nice presentation. Thanks for posting, Marth!

[Marth8880]

No problem. I just wish that people would actually learn from and utilize these resources more often, it could really have a giant impact on the quality of the maps produced.

[Grev]

First and foremost, you simply must cut down on the size of the map. Every time I see a huge map on SWBF Files, it has a generally poor review from Mav. Large maps just aren't usually very good. I would suggest you choose one smaller area of the map, focus on it, and get rid of all other parts of the map.

No disrespect directed at Mav here, but Mav's negative opinion doesn't immediately equate to a bad map, nor does it immediately mean that large maps are bad. There are plenty of good larger scale maps, and if anything, Mav's consistent choice to give those lower scores shows a bias on his side (which he is absolutely free to have, mind you - opinions EXIST, and Mav is free to have his). But saying that because Mav reviews them poorly they're bad, and to use that to dissuade someone from pursuing a large map is pretty foolish. While one can certainly make the case for more concentrated gameplay in smaller maps, play-styles differ from person to person. I can't speak for the quality of Dakota's map, as I haven't played it, but dissuading a novice modder from pursuing something on the basis of review precedent is downright ridiculous.

[Noobasaurus]

Could someone please post screens? This is the released maps and mods topic.

[THEWULFMAN]

No disrespect directed at Mav here, but Mav's negative opinion doesn't immediately equate to a bad map, nor does it immediately mean that large maps are bad. There are plenty of good larger scale maps, and if anything, Mav's consistent choice to give those lower scores shows a bias on his side (which he is absolutely free to have, mind you - opinions EXIST, and Mav is free to have his). But saying that because Mav reviews them poorly they're bad, and to use that to dissuade someone from pursuing a large map is pretty foolish. While one can certainly make the case for more concentrated gameplay in smaller maps, play-styles differ from person to person. I can't speak for the quality of Dakota's map, as I haven't played it, but dissuading a novice modder from pursuing something on the basis of review precedent is downright ridiculous.

While I agree with about 90% of that, there is one factor that is not taken into account. I've played some REALLY big maps, and loved them, but they are very, very rare. It's a lot harder to get good gameplay from most people's very large maps because they do them poorly. A large part in that is the game itself, it's made for medium-to-small maps. The largest stock map is Hoth, which is well done. If Dakota, or anyone else, can make a good large map, then great. However it's a lot easier on a novice modder(which, face it, most of us here are novices(including me)), to make a medium or small map.

Marth may have used Mav's opinion as an example, but it is his own personal opinion as well.

[Marth8880]

First and foremost, you simply must cut down on the size of the map. Every time I see a huge map on SWBF Files, it has a generally poor review from Mav. Large maps just aren't usually very good. I would suggest you choose one smaller area of the map, focus on it, and get rid of all other parts of the map.

No disrespect directed at Mav here, but Mav's negative opinion doesn't immediately equate to a bad map, nor does it immediately mean that large maps are bad. There are plenty of good larger scale maps, and if anything, Mav's consistent choice to give those lower scores shows a bias on his side (which he is absolutely free to have, mind you - opinions EXIST, and Mav is free to have his). But saying that because Mav reviews them poorly they're bad, and to use that to dissuade someone from pursuing a large map is pretty foolish. While one can certainly make the case for more concentrated gameplay in smaller maps, play-styles differ from person to person. I can't speak for the quality of Dakota's map, as I haven't played it, but dissuading a novice modder from pursuing something on the basis of review precedent is downright ridiculous.

Allow me to reiterate: This map is so enormous and spanning that I actually sort of became stressfully irritated at the lack of A.I. to fight, as well as the lack of unique content to pursue, all because the map was just so darned gigantic. If one can fill a very large map with a ton of unique, exciting, adrenaline-pumping content, then that's great! But that's an extraordinarily difficult task to accomplish, especially when you can't add any technologies to the game itself. (Ahhhh, if only...)

I was only using Mav's reviews as a guideline, a path to follow. The same principle is applied when one starts a project for school; if it's available, one should read through the grading rubric before starting the project so they know what they're supposed to (or should) do and how they're supposed to (or should) do it.

But then, this is only my opinion and, well, what does that matter? This is entirely Dakota's map.

[Maveritchell]

Hey guys, speaking as someone who hasn't played the map, but whose name is getting thrown around a lot, here are my two cents on the issue of big maps. I do consistently point that out as a flaw in reviews, and there are several biases I own when I present them in reviews. This is what's important about big maps, and it has little to do directly with the size: if the player gets bored (which is often correlated with running around on a big open map), then it's not a good map. That's the bottom line. There's nothing inherently wrong with "big."

Don't ever make a map to please a specific reviewer - if you're really out to suck up to me, cash or money orders are infinitely more preferable.

[Dakota]

@grev: why must this site have no +1 button...

@noobasaurus: its in the released maps and mods section because it was moved there. the topic originally was meant for me to find people who want to beta test the mod and then contact me with reviews and bugs to fix for the full version, not just a topic for looking at the mod. thats why i put it in swbf2 general at first.

@Marth: i only have the rough planning down for the ai for now, some walk the halls and stuff from the pathing i have but i have no barriers yet and still need to fix a few things, one being that ai love to walk up to walls and cliffs more than anything else.

[Noobasaurus]

@noobasaurus: its in the released maps and mods section because it was moved there. the topic originally was meant for me to find people who want to beta test the mod and then contact me with reviews and bugs to fix for the full version, not just a topic for looking at the mod. thats why i put it in swbf2 general at first.

Yeah yeah, I know, but it should've been here in the first place and should've screens if you want more people to test it. My two cents anyway.

Yes, I did test it for about 5 minutes.

[Dakota]

(sees no review)

hmm you tested it but did you beta test it

[Noobasaurus]

(sees no review)

hmm you tested it but did you beta test it

Maybe it was two. I didn't have very much time.

Well, when I went inside of a cave from a Death Star hangar it looked really...messy.