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I have seen it said a few places on this site that larger maps are rarely better, but im not quite sure the message is clear enough.

After spending some time scouring filefront for quality original maps, (ya i looked at nearly every one) this too became kind of an issue for me. I spend alot of time sharing and play testing mods and this is what I find to be the truth.

What the world definitely doesnt need is more terrain based maps. Terrain based maps exist because most of us are not proficient 3D modellers and artists, and so we begin to think we can make our dreams come true just using the terrain. Stop and slap yourself, lol im just kidding. I too used to think "maybe". But there is no maybe. Terrain is just boring. At first you may feel a sense of uforia as you speed along through the valleys and rip over mountain tops with your jets. But minutes later you want to be back in the action again. And thats what a good map has...action.

It doesnt matter if its just a square, if it has the action it will be better than roaming around through a giant world. The game is about shooting and dodging and stuff, and is not an everquest adventure. Of course you cant just have a square.... and so what do you need? What people really really want is to have a little bit of openess combined with alot of corners and other types of cover. They dont want to have to run to far to get back in the game. Vehicles are usually a bad idea unless its generally a vehicle battle.

If you dont believe me so far, just ask yourself what your favorite map is that actually came with the game. The answer for nearly everybody out there will be either Death Star, Mustafar, or Coruscant. Some runners up might be Utapau or Mygeeto, or maybe Tantive. And the funny thing is that in all six of these examples there is no landscape at all. The best maps are going to be some chunks of meshed objects from the original game put together, or if you have the talent to make your own mesh objects and put them in... all the better.

If you really cant stand working with the objects and placing them ever so correctly, then a lanscape mod can be ok if its a simple concept that focuses on gameplay. Let me say again that you want to avoid the whole "explore my world" mentality and stick to a premise. Example: A lanscape mod that might be fun would be a land based tie fighter battle that takes place in a giant canyon or asteroid with lots of peaks for cover and collision danger. It could just be some tie fighter bases and some command points and thats it. Because the focus is on being fun for multiplayer, and coz its easy to make a good looking canyon using terrain, this would actually be a good map.

The focus on multiplayer is very important and is under-stressed. Setting the correct number of bots for a single player arrangement is never going to apply to a multiplayer scenario. Even with the addition of one or two players, the speed in which you mow through bots changes alot. What feels cranked up for single player doesnt hold back 2 or 3 of you the same way. And lag is a major major component of the multiplayer game, and so you need to able to adjust the bots to reduce the lag, and still have the map play "not-to-bad". You will only get so much mileage making a single player mod for you to watch your friends try and win it. The real thrill is playing online with your buddies, or looking for a server and seeing some people playing your map, and then joining them.

So its generally a bad idea to use SetUberMode(1) and start jacking up the bots, because you need to be able to increase or decrease the number of bots on the map, so that kind of leaves you stuck with 32. This is another reason to keep things tight, but not the most important one.

The most important factor is gameplay and this needs to be well tested. Release a beta and play it with your friends to see how things will really happen in the multiplayer environment. Also your buddies will find the bugs for you ( like missing award weapons ). Play your map alot when developing it, and make sure you are having fun, not just looking at it and saying "kuuuuuulllee... it worked". As difficult as it is, try not to be in a rush. A good cure for this is to keep releasing and playing betas until you are happy. Really go out of your way to resolve as many sound issues as you can, even though it is difficult. Make sure bots arent running off to their death, or endlessly running into a corner, or spawning underground, lol. Sometimes you just cant make the bots behave, i know, but do your best.

While I agree its good to make your bots more aggressive, dont over do it. The reason to make bots more aggressive is not totally so they can kill you better, its so that less bots do more. Having better bots will enable you to use LESS bots, so that fighting two of them is as difficult as fighting 4 regular bots. What you want to totally avoid is giving the player the feeling that the bots are better than they are. The player wants to feel like the greatest player in the game, but doesnt want the bots to be too easy either. Using less bots that are slightly more aggressive helps keep up gameplay while reducing lag for multiplayer games.

OK so get out there and make your next latest and greatest. Have fun.

Oh, and by the way....the two best maps I found are Naboo : Theed Hangar (awesome light bloomage) and the Battlefront 1 version of Bespin ..... but it wasnt until I took the map.lvl file and made my own teams for it that the gameplay was good enough. Same with Theed, it didnt come alive until I had my own jedis in there. If you are interested to try them goto www.freewebs.com/smdworld2/swbf2mods.htm

Congrats to Koolaid7g for the best original map out there. Koolaid please download the -SMD- expansion packs and see what I did with your theed. lol he's gonna be mad coz I ditched his side.

So...you posted an essay on why other's maps are bad, saying that they "didn't come alive" until you tinkered with them, then went ahead and edited them without permission and are now posting a link.

Truth be told, that's all I got from skimming it. I didn't read the whole thing because my eyes started to hurt.

yea i agree with fiodis editing someone's own work is definitely not cool also from the video on the website you directed us too there was a lot of glitching aka cheating something not allowed here at GT i'll try not to be a JM but please read the rules

There are a couple things I agree in your text, first: less, smarter bots are more relevant than lots of dumb bots and second: gameplay is the most important thing of all, if it is not fun, then it is not worth the trouble; however, I completely disagree with you in the "the world doesn't need more terrain maps" argument, I have played many incredible maps based mostly in a large, natural terrain, you can't just discard them as useless, there has to be a balance.

I get the feeling that the most important thing for you is to have an arena, while the quality of the map is second (or third, or fourth... or fifth) in your list of priorities. You will find that your style of mapping is not compatible with much of the mappers here in GT, so that may get you in some conflicts of ideology with other members.

By the way, I don't have a favorite stock map, I believe all of them are unique and important in their own kind of way (yes, I sound corny sometimes).

reading over the whole thing, it says this

Larger maps are rarely better

don't go overboard on unit count

our maps suck since some of us can't 3D model

dont have openness, have objects for cover

less landscape, the better

avoid big maps

Multiplayer is important (not so much....)

Gameplay is important (no dur...)

uber bots = less bots

and finally, you edited someone's map without their permission.

You didn't need to write an essay to tell us something that almost ALL of us already know.

And isn't 7 topics in one day, mostly advertising your websites and telling us stuff we already know a little overboard?

Yeah... No. I only skimmed through this and saw 3 problems.
1: You've edited others' work. As Yank and Fiodis said, not cool.
2:

SHOOT ME DEAD ! wrote: Vehicles are usually a bad idea unless its generally a vehicle battle.

This is definitely NOT true. For instance, have you ever played maps such as Warlord28's CW Kashyyyk? There are vehicles on that, and it's definitely not meant for vehicular combat.
3: MP does not make or break a map. Go look at Maveritchell's Aquilarus or Spira: Besaid, or AQT and Saitek's Talay: Tak Base. Not focused around MP at all, yet Aquilarus and Spira are two of my favorite maps, and the earlier version of Talay was awesome, although I haven't gotten 2.0 yet.

lol sorry to break it to ya butchya dont got a patch on Pandemic. The stock maps are fantastic, they really are, and yet everytime Hoth loads up its greeted with a fresh round of "booooo"

If vehicles are being used for non-vehicular purposes then they are transports, and if you need to be transported to the action that is bad.

Also your skim reading summaries rather inaccurate... espec "uber mode = less bots" ? ummm no i didnt say that. lol. but more importantly, arent responses supposed to be about the topic ? Why does it matter how many posts I make I you are here making pointless responses ? At least my screen space had some content. But thanks for spamming my topic and making yourself look .... just go back to your landscape based maps and transport yourself to the action...lol.

ACtually, you did say my equivalent of Uber bots = Less bots.

Having better bots will enable you to use LESS bots, so that fighting two of them is as difficult as fighting 4 regular bots.

better bots doesnt mean uber bots....lol.

increasing the aggressiveness is "better" bots.

Uber bots means "more than 32 bots" as in SetUberMode(1)

Also I find modders complaining about "ripping of other people's work" to be the ultimate irony of the year. lol the hypocracy. Hey Koolaid, I liked your map, I gave you credit, and I think you would really like my version of it. Nuthin but luv, brutha. These guyz just dont get me.

What the world definitely doesnt need is more terrain based maps. Terrain based maps exist because most of us are not proficient 3D modellers and artists, and so we begin to think we can make our dreams come true just using the terrain. Stop and slap yourself, lol im just kidding. I too used to think "maybe". But there is no maybe. Terrain is just boring. At first you may feel a sense of uforia as you speed along through the valleys and rip over mountain tops with your jets. But minutes later you want to be back in the action again. And thats what a good map has...action.

It doesnt matter if its just a square, if it has the action it will be better than roaming around through a giant world. The game is about shooting and dodging and stuff, and is not an everquest adventure. Of course you cant just have a square.... and so what do you need? What people really really want is to have a little bit of openess combined with alot of corners and other types of cover. They dont want to have to run to far to get back in the game. Vehicles are usually a bad idea unless its generally a vehicle battle.

Terrain does not equal a large map, which seems to be what you are inferring. And terrain certainly does not make or break a map. There's plenty of maps that utilize terrain that are fast-paced and action-packed.

If you dont believe me so far, just ask yourself what your favorite map is that actually came with the game. The answer for nearly everybody out there will be either Death Star, Mustafar, or Coruscant. Some runners up might be Utapau or Mygeeto, or maybe Tantive. And the funny thing is that in all six of these examples there is no landscape at all. The best maps are going to be some chunks of meshed objects from the original game put together, or if you have the talent to make your own mesh objects and put them in... all the better.

For the most part, all the shipped maps are great. I can't say there's any variation in fun between outdoor and indoor maps.

If you really cant stand working with the objects and placing them ever so correctly, then a lanscape mod can be ok if its a simple concept that focuses on gameplay. Let me say again that you want to avoid the whole "explore my world" mentality and stick to a premise. Example: A lanscape mod that might be fun would be a land based tie fighter battle that takes place in a giant canyon or asteroid with lots of peaks for cover and collision danger. It could just be some tie fighter bases and some command points and thats it. Because the focus is on being fun for multiplayer, and coz its easy to make a good looking canyon using terrain, this would actually be a good map.

The focus on multiplayer is very important and is under-stressed. Setting the correct number of bots for a single player arrangement is never going to apply to a multiplayer scenario. Even with the addition of one or two players, the speed in which you mow through bots changes alot. What feels cranked up for single player doesnt hold back 2 or 3 of you the same way. And lag is a major major component of the multiplayer game, and so you need to able to adjust the bots to reduce the lag, and still have the map play "not-to-bad". You will only get so much mileage making a single player mod for you to watch your friends try and win it. The real thrill is playing online with your buddies, or looking for a server and seeing some people playing your map, and then joining them.

Multiplayer is a joke. No matter how good your connection, there'll always be lag. Especially with those lightsabers. I'll be playing online with a friend in the same room and my saber will be flip-flopping all over the place, making it very difficult to do any serious Jedi combat.

In addition, rarely anyone plays mods online. There's so many mods and so few servers running them, very few people will have the same mod and be able to play against each other. In the end, most mods released never get played online at all. It's different for you, being in a clan that can organize matches and play the same mod together. But for the rest of us, multiplayer doesn't seem very significant at all, nor should it be.

So its generally a bad idea to use SetUberMode(1) and start jacking up the bots, because you need to be able to increase or decrease the number of bots on the map, so that kind of leaves you stuck with 32. This is another reason to keep things tight, but not the most important one.

It's good to keep a fairly low AI count, but that doesn't neccessarily mean you need to make a cramped or "tight" map.

The most important factor is gameplay and this needs to be well tested. Release a beta and play it with your friends to see how things will really happen in the multiplayer environment. Also your buddies will find the bugs for you ( like missing award weapons ). Play your map alot when developing it, and make sure you are having fun, not just looking at it and saying "kuuuuuulllee... it worked". As difficult as it is, try not to be in a rush. A good cure for this is to keep releasing and playing betas until you are happy. Really go out of your way to resolve as many sound issues as you can, even though it is difficult. Make sure bots arent running off to their death, or endlessly running into a corner, or spawning underground, lol. Sometimes you just cant make the bots behave, i know, but do your best.

Common sense.

While I agree its good to make your bots more aggressive, dont over do it. The reason to make bots more aggressive is not totally so they can kill you better, its so that less bots do more. Having better bots will enable you to use LESS bots, so that fighting two of them is as difficult as fighting 4 regular bots. What you want to totally avoid is giving the player the feeling that the bots are better than they are. The player wants to feel like the greatest player in the game, but doesnt want the bots to be too easy either. Using less bots that are slightly more aggressive helps keep up gameplay while reducing lag for multiplayer games.

As far as I know, there isn't a way to directly make bots more or less aggresive.

Congrats to Koolaid7g for the best original map out there. Koolaid please download the -SMD- expansion packs and see what I did with your theed. lol he's gonna be mad coz I ditched his side.

So you made all the units lightsaber-wielders with insane jumping abilities? I don't know, but that doesn't sound very fun to me. But then again, you probably don't deal with throw-spamming bots online.

Also I find modders complaining about "ripping of other people's work" to be the ultimate irony of the year. lol the hypocracy. Hey Koolaid, I liked your map, I gave you credit, and I think you would really like my version of it. Nuthin but luv, brutha. These guyz just dont get me.

I think he would have preferred his recreation of the Battle of Theed better than your mish-mash of saber-totin characters.

Well, what you describe in your essay is a lot of stuff that first time mappers don't know how to do. Those with the experience to do them already know how to anyway. I don't, nor do I plan to learn them for use in my map (which is interior btw).

Editing others' work then asking them to see what you did: not good.

I also agree with Xavious on multiple levels.

SHOOT ME DEAD ! wrote:Also I find modders complaining about "ripping of other people's work" to be the ultimate irony of the year. lol the hypocracy. Hey Koolaid, I liked your map, I gave you credit, and I think you would really like my version of it. Nuthin but luv, brutha. These guyz just dont get me.

...
1: Not ironic.
2: I'm sorry, but how would you like it if someone took your greatest work and manipulated it to their liking and then released it, all without permission? I would think that you wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't, especially if you saw that they just assumed that they would prefer a quick hack of their map over the long hours they spent on it to fix it up to their liking, as well as others.

Well I could say a whole lot of stuff about how most of what you say is a lot like scientology...(ie its a mix of total garbage and common sense), or your arrogance, rudeness and your clear lack of spelling and modding ability (c'mon no one is silly enough to make a map out of terrain and about two people ever have)...but to be honest most of its been said already.....

Straight from Koolaids Readme file:

*** THIS IS MY OWN MAP AND OF MY OWN DESIGN! ***


The only reason the maps look similar is because they are all modeled off of
the Naboo Hangar from the movies. Saying I copied someone else because our maps
look geographically similar is like saying you copied someone else's sketch of
Charlie Brown. Both sketches are based off of Schultz's work.


---------------------IMPORTANT!---------------------


If you wish to host my mod, email me! DO NOT HOST/ POST ON OTHER

SITES WITHOUT MY CONSENT! DO NOT HACK MY MAP EITHER, as the models used are

not available for individual distribution!


---------------------IMPORTANT!---------------------

Seems pretty straight forward that he does not want anyone messing with the map.

One of the cardinal rules at GT is respecting other users and their work. We cannot control what you do or do not do at other sites, but posting about modifying others' work without permission (even if it is just an addendum to your post) cannot be allowed.